No 7 and the breakdown

[mightymouse]

I believe there are 3 key positions in Rugby


No3, No7 and No10

As a general rule of thumb - if you have class players in those positions then you can go a long way in dominating a game.

In Leicester we have never been short of top class tightheads and still have them in spades

10 has been a problem in the past but be would be wonderful now if it was not for catastrophic injury list.

Open side wing forward however is more of a worry to me.

Over the years I have been privilaged to watch some great 7s operate at Welford Road -- Dosser Smith, Neil Back, Josh Kronfeld, Shane Jennings and Lewis Moody.

I know some would say thet Lewis was more like a 6 but I think he had the major ingredient that I want to see from a 7 and that is competing at the breakdown.

The best 7s , The Macaws, Kronfelds, George Smiths, Neil Backs of this world ensure that you as a team win more of the 50/50 ball in the loose than the opposition and thereby give you not only continuity of possetion to build pressure but also quick broken field play, where the backs can thrive.

I think most backs on the field would tell you that the quality 7 is their favourite player.

Although a knarled old front row player myself I can appreciate the beauty of a great open side in action - indeed inspite of all the great tight 5 players that Tigers have enjoyed over the years my favorite player I have watched to this day is Josh Kronfeld.

That brings me to the current situation .

A couple of years ago, a few months after his arrival I had great hopes for Ben Woods and thought he looked very useful - Ok, no Josh Kronfeld or Neil Back but still fairly useful. However now when I watch him he looks ineffective and worringly annonomous.

Is this because he is unfit or off form or is it something to do with the style of play due to the law changes? I am not sure and cannot make up my mind - He occasionally puts in a big hit which leads me to think he may be better suited to blind side, however we have seen Tom Croft at 7 and that does not work well either.

Ben has been out played by the opposition in all 3 games this years and I think this is a prime cause of our problems. We are not winning the contact and breakdown area and like the scrummage and lineout they are areas that you need at least parity if you are to succeed.

As a Tigers supporter it seems so strange to see us not compete in this area as for so long it has been , like the scrummage, our place of strength.

It comes as no suprise to me that teams like Northampton, Bath and Irish are doing well - all with go 7s

What can be done, to resolve his thorny problem ? I am not sure that Ben Pienar or any other youngster is answer either.

[pogue3]

Ive said it before and agree with you. Ben Woods isn't good ennough

[ancientmariner]

MM - I'm glad you've brought this up, because it's my view exactly. I know we at Tigers were spoiled over many years with Neil Back in the side - whom one correspondent described as apparently attached to the ball permanently in attack and defence. I don't like generally to criticise individual players in a team game - but I also think that Ben Wood's not up to it. Amongst other things there seems to be a worrying gap round the sides of ruck, scrum and maul that the likes of Back, Betsen and Kronfeld policed so effectively.

[Will S]

We have a few problems at the moment but most of these will be resolved by current squad members returning to fitness. Two key positions where I do not think we have sufficient quality, especially in depth, are 2 and 7. These are the two spots where I would look to strenghten the squad.

My choice would be to look to Wasps. Wasps are on the decline and their top players may love the opportunity to move to Tigers. At hooker they have two young lads who are highly rated in Webber and Lindsay. At 7 they obviously have Rees who IMO could be right up there with the likes of McCall and Pocock.

Doubt it would happen but I would be very happy if it did!!!

[mightymouse]

I spent much of the Wasps game shouting at the television (nothing unusual there I can assure you) - it was what I was shouting that had changed.

Normally I am shouting at the Referee to sort himself out or at the topposition for lying on the ball.

But what I was shouting mainly on Saturday was

a) what the hell was that? as another Tigers pass hit the deck

or

b) were are the forwards? as we went into contact and lost yet another breakdown -

When I thiought about it , what I meant was - Where is the openside securing the ball? Nowhere I'm afraid - very worrying!

[Nic]

Agree with this thread No 7 and 2 are definite weaknesses, when we have world class players leave we must look to replace them effectively either with home grown talent or from elsewhere.

In the pro era we can't wait a couple of seasons to see if they make the grade as with Woods.

[Luke]

mightymouse, I think its a very valid argument and one of the more fundamental reasons why we are not performing to the level most Tigers fans expect. Most of the areas we've been struggling in (the breakdown, getting support players to the ball-carrier) are where you expect your 7 to shine.

It should not be overlooked that there is an extraordinary amount of pressure on Ben Woods this season, stepping into the rather large shoes of Lewis Moody. I believe that the lack of any genuine competition to his starting place his poor for his development because: (1) a rival 7 should provide additional motivation to perform; (2) in a strange way a rival relieves the pressure on the individual (i.e. Ben knows that, pretty much, he can't really be dropped so will have to soldier on even if he's not performing well), and; (3) there is no other colleague (save for a coach who obviously isn't experiencing the new interpretations for real) for him to discuss the problems with.

I've said this on another thread, but given that we have A.Tuilagi, M.Tuilagi, Hamilton, Amorsino, Robinson, Agulla, Hurrell and Smith (8 x players) who can comfortably play on the wing and only Woods who can comfortably play 7 (perhaps Pienaar at a push, Newby has gone on record as saying its a bit of a push for him), is the balance of the squad right?

[mightymouse]

Of course once upon a time we had a succession plan - Will Skinner and Luke Abraham for example - but these lads got fed up waiting and moved on - Will Skinner in particular to great effect - Deano knew that lad's worth - Oh for his return now!

[Bill W (2)]

I have frequently ground on about Tigers lack of a "true" openside.

Moody was not a "true" openside. Nor is Woods.

Back, Kronfeld yes.

The nearest we have is Tom Croft - and he is a blindside!

The new interpretations have highlighted this deficiency.

[drc_007]

Sadly I think the comments about Woods are accurate,he showed great promise but has not really kicked on. I don't think Croft can play 7, he probably too tall and his skills are desperately needed elsewhere in the pack.
Matt Everard looks to be very useful, perhaps he should be given a run?

[Darc Tiger]

Id give Pienaar a go. Not sure he is a natural 7, but has always given his all when I have seen him play.

Look to Matt Everard after that then. Looks a great prospect. A proper scraping, scavenging openside. Although he is playing for the academy, whereas Jethro Rawling seems to have leapfrogged him into the A-team.

[Gate]

How good is Rawling? Have to admit I know diddly about him.

[maxy437]

How good is Rawling? Have to admit I know diddly about him.

If someone would be so kind to give a rating for Pienaar and Everard as 7's too I'd be very grateful

[G.K]

Don't disagree and one thing I noticed in the Exeter game was the number of times 12T for example was in a ruck trying to win ball rather than the No 7 doing it.

As I've said before - twas a mistake to loose Moody, especially with no decent replacement. And if/when Woods get injured, as 7's are prone to do, then what?

[Will S]

I think letting Moody go was the right call from the sal cap perspective but it is just a shame we didn't pick up a player like young Woods from Worcester.