Heineken Cup 2010/2011

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Old Hob
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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by Old Hob » Sun May 23, 2010 9:15 pm

Cagey Tiger wrote:With all the matches now played, here, I am pretty sure, are the 4 tiers for next season. I've put the other English teams in italics so you can see who we cannot get, and before anyone else says anything about the colours(apologies to the colour blind), it's sad I know, but it does show things that would not be quite so obvious like their are 3 French teams in Tier 4:

Munster
Toulouse
Leinster
Leicester Tigers
Biarritz Olympique
Cardiff Blues

London Wasps

Forgive 1 the blasphemy and 2 the ignorance but what if the Saffies won next weekend ?
ASM Clermont Auvergne
Ospreys
Northampton Saints
Bath Rugby
Scarlets

Perpignan
London Irish
Saracens
Ulster Rugby
Glasgow Warriors
Edinburgh

Newport Gwent Dragons
Benetton Treviso
Castres Olympique
RC Toulon
Aironi Rugby
Racing-Metro 92
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Tiger_in_Birmingham
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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Sun May 23, 2010 9:23 pm

Old Hob wrote:Forgive 1 the blasphemy and 2 the ignorance but what if the Saffies won next weekend ?
Nothing - European seeding goes on form from European tournaments only as explained in the link by Tigerburnie earlier

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by Old Hob » Sun May 23, 2010 9:24 pm

Tiger_in_Birmingham wrote:
Old Hob wrote:Forgive 1 the blasphemy and 2 the ignorance but what if the Saffies won next weekend ?
Nothing - European seeding goes on form from European tournaments only as explained in the link by Tigerburnie earlier
Ta told you I was ignorant.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by tb1 » Sun May 23, 2010 9:31 pm

Tiger_in_Birmingham wrote:
Cagey Tiger wrote: Leicester Tigers

Scarlets

Glasgow Warriors
Edinburgh
Let's hope for Scarlets from Tier 2 and preferably a Scottish team rather than Perpignan from Tier 3.

Would be nice to avoid the Italian Super-Clubs from Tier 4 as well until more is known about them
Dont think it is possible to get both Scottish teams in one group, also there must be at least one French team in each group.

Best groups could be:
Leicester
Scarlets
Perpignan
Italian Team

or:
Leicester
ASM
Scottish Team/Ulster
Italian Team/Newport

Worst Group:
Leicester
Ospreys
Scottish Team/Ulster
Toulon/ Castres

We will have at least one decent French team in our group. The big question is whether that team comes from tier 4 or not. Hopefully not as then we will be able to pick up one of the weak teams from the bottom.

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Sun May 23, 2010 9:53 pm

tb1 wrote:Dont think it is possible to get both Scottish teams in one group, also there must be at least one French team in each group.

Best groups could be:
Leicester
Scarlets
Perpignan
Italian Team

or:
Leicester
ASM
Scottish Team/Ulster
Italian Team/Newport

Worst Group:
Leicester
Ospreys
Scottish Team/Ulster
Toulon/ Castres

We will have at least one decent French team in our group. The big question is whether that team comes from tier 4 or not. Hopefully not as then we will be able to pick up one of the weak teams from the bottom.
I know we can't get both Scottish teams but I would take them over Perpignan. I would also avoid Italian team like the plague from next season, they will be forming super clubs don't forget

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by Tigerbeat » Sun May 23, 2010 10:58 pm

I thought that only the Top six ranked Clubs were seeded and the remaining teams drawn out at random.
Only exception, no group shall contain two teams from the same country.

The exception to the above rule would be France, as they have got 7 Heineken Cup places nect year.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Mon May 24, 2010 7:38 am

Tigerbeat wrote:I thought that only the Top six ranked Clubs were seeded and the remaining teams drawn out at random.
Only exception, no group shall contain two teams from the same country.

The exception to the above rule would be France, as they have got 7 Heineken Cup places nect year.
I thought it was top six seeded but then one from each Tier avoiding teams from the same country.

Last year it was a farce that Clermont were a Tier 3 side as they were clearly stronger than a few of the other Tier 2 sides.

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by Cagey Tiger » Mon May 24, 2010 1:05 pm

From last year's guide to the HEC draw. If things have not changed apart from the obvious such as the references to Quins, Leinster etc. (I haven't seen anything, has anyone else?), it is one team from each tier in each pool.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/5018_12782.php

Heineken Cup Pool Draw Format

Key Principles
• For the purpose of the draw the 24 qualified teams are ranked based on their ERC European rankings and are divided into four Tiers. Rankings are based on European performance over the past four seasons in the Heineken Cup and knock-out stages of the European Challenge Cup.

Each Pool will have one team from each of the four Tier levels.

• No two teams from the same country will be drawn in the same Pool except for the seventh club from England (Harlequins based on European Ranking) which will be drawn into a Pool with another English team.

• The winner of the Heineken Cup will be seeded in the first Tier and will be drawn into a Pool first.

Draw Format
• The draw will have four stages starting with the allocation of six teams from Tier 1 and then moving to the next Tier.

• Allocation of Tier 1 - The Number 1 ranked team (Leinster Heineken Cup champions) will be drawn into one of the six Pools. The remaining five top Tier teams will then be drawn into the five Pool spots left available.

• For the Allocation of Tier 2, 3 and 4, the teams will be drawn starting with the teams from the country with the highest number of teams participating in the tournament England.
Therefore the order of allocation in each Tier will be teams from England, France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy until all teams in the Tier have been drawn.

Note as Scotland and Italy both have two teams competing, the Scottish teams will be drawn first as they are ranked higher than either Italian side.

• During each Tier allocation a team will be drawn and then a Pool number for that team from the available Pool options.

• In Tier 4 the seventh English team (Harlequins based on ranking) will be drawn into the Pools last.

• To avoid having two teams from the same country in the same Pool, some teams may be allocated to available Pool spots automatically during the course of the Draw.

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by tb1 » Mon May 24, 2010 1:49 pm

jgriffin wrote:I'd take

Tigers
Scarlets
Ulster
Benetton

as a group any day of the week.

We're going to get Ospreys again............... :smt013
As I said, I dont think this can happen as there must be a French team in each group. One group will have two French teams, as far as I understand these two must be Toulouse and RM92 (top and bottom teams of the seven qualifiers), and we cant be in this group as Toulouse are also tier 1. We also cant get BOPB as they are tier 1.

We could get any of the other four, its a balancing act but it may be best to get ASM or Perpignan as then we can get one of the weaker teams from tier 4.

Regarding the Ospreys we have roughly a one in three chance of drawing them.

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by LeinsterCormac » Mon May 24, 2010 2:57 pm

In respect of the pool that will contain two French teams, it will definitely contain Racing Metro as they are the weakest ranked French side. They can't be drawn with Toulon or Castres as these two sides are in the same group of seeds. They can be drawn with any of the other four French sides though.

All pools must contain one team from each group of seedings and may not contain teams from the same country (with the exception of Racing Metro) and this means that each pool will have one English team and at least one French side. For example Leicester could draw a pool containing Ospreys, Perpignan and Racing Metro.

From 2nd seeds - Leicester will draw one of Clermont, Ospreys or Scarlets.
From 3rd seeds - Leicester can draw Perpignan, UIster, Glasgow or Edinburgh.*
From 4th seeds - Leicester can draw any team.*

* depending on who they draw from the 2nd and 3rd seeds

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by tb1 » Mon May 24, 2010 3:05 pm

LeinsterCormac wrote:In respect of the pool that will contain two French teams, it will definitely contain Racing Metro as they are the weakest ranked French side. They can't be drawn with Toulon or Castres as these two sides are in the same group of seeds. They can be drawn with any of the other four French sides though.

All pools must contain one team from each group of seedings and may not contain teams from the same country (with the exception of Racing Metro) and this means that each pool will have one English team and at least one French side. For example Leicester could draw a pool containing Ospreys, Perpignan and Racing Metro.

From 2nd seeds - Leicester will draw one of Clermont, Ospreys or Scarlets.
From 3rd seeds - Leicester can draw Perpignan, UIster, Glasgow or Edinburgh.*
From 4th seeds - Leicester can draw any team.*

* depending on who they draw from the 2nd and 3rd seeds
Ta for that. :smt006

The most important thing is to dodge the big French teams in tier4. Secondary hope is to dodge the Ospreys I think.

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by LeinsterCormac » Mon May 24, 2010 4:54 pm

tb1 wrote: Ta for that. :smt006

The most important thing is to dodge the big French teams in tier4. Secondary hope is to dodge the Ospreys I think.
For both our teams (Leicester and Leinster), avoiding Racing Metro would be a big help, as then you'd get either Perpignan or Clermont in the group too. Both Racing and Toulon have the cash to build a squad that can compete in both Europe and domestically. Castres would probably be the best French side to draw as they're the weakest of the French teams in Pools 2, 3 and 4.

I think the standard of the tournament may go up another notch next season, from the French, I'd say that 6 of their 7 qualifiers are very strong, while Saracens, Wasps and Bath's inclusion should ensure a stronger English presence. I realise Bath were in this year's comp but they were very poor in the first half of the season, while Wasps have plenty of experience and Saracens look a tough outfit. Hopefully the reduction in professional Italian teams will make them more competitive too.

I can imagine some very strong pools where the usual suspects will have a tough time qualifying. As an example of what could lie ahead.

Pool 1 - Munster, Wasps, Perpignan, Dragons
Pool 2 - Toulouse, Northampton, Ulster, Racing Metro
Pool 3 - Leinster, Ospreys, London Irish, Toulon
Pool 4 - Leicester, Scarlets, Glasgow, Castres
Pool 5 - Biarritz, Bath, Edinburgh, Treviso
Pool 6 - Cardiff, Clermont, Saracens, Aironi

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by GT1 » Mon May 24, 2010 8:27 pm

Do we know the date of the draw yet?

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Re: Heineken Cup 2010/2011

Post by dailywaffle » Tue May 25, 2010 8:01 am

tb1 wrote:Regarding the Ospreys we have roughly a one in three chance of drawing them.
The probabilility of Ospreys or Scarlets may well be higher.
Although ASM are one of three tier 2 teams that Leicester can draw, there is only a 25% chance that they will be placed in our Pool if the same draw format as the last two seasons is adopted. ASM are the only French team in tier 2, and they would be allocated before either of the Welsh regions. They could be drawn with any of Cardiff, Leicester, Leinster or Munster.
If so, the probability of drawing Ospreys or Scarlets is 75%.

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