Sixteen men on pitch

[triage]

Why would a player returning from a blood injury run on to the pitch without noticing that another player was not coming off at the same time?

perhaps my sig is even quite relevant in this case (aimed at the player and not you)

[Bill W (2)]

Why would a player returning from a blood injury run on to the pitch without noticing that another player was not coming off at the same time?

perhaps my sig is even quite relevant in this case (aimed at the player and not you)

Indeed. And also applicable to why would a ref give permission for somene to return and not check that his replacement had left?

[triage]

Why would a player returning from a blood injury run on to the pitch without noticing that another player was not coming off at the same time?

perhaps my sig is even quite relevant in this case (aimed at the player and not you)

Indeed. And also applicable to why would a ref give permission for somene to return and not check that his replacement had left?

I can't answer that bill other than to suggest maybe at the top they are so used to the 4th official doing all the checking they don't bother themselves.

[cunningcorgi]

No the someone should not have been him. Unless allowed by the referee you should not leave the field of play (or enter which is the problem).

The fact that Bowe acknowledged Osprey's had the extra man does not mean he should break another law of the game to try and correct the previous error. I can only imagine the hysteria there would be if he had gone off, without the referees authority, and then returned at the next phase and the correct player leave the pitch.


As for any repercussions precedent has been set - no points loss but a cash fine.

Although there is an argument that unlike England and Dan Luger Byrne returning was critical to the outcome of the game it is irrelevant as the results of games cannot be altered - nor should they - referees make mistakes all the time which affect the outcome of matches just as, if not, more important - look at the Hand of Back, the referee of the '03 world cup final giving australia a penalty at the scrum despite england dominating all night


The most important outcome of this is to prove that Lewis does not know the laws of the game (something I have strongly suspected for several years) as when he did acknowledge the extra man on the pitch it should have been a Tigers penalty from where the ball was at the time. The standard of refereeing has not advanced with the standard (speed and intensity) of rugby since turning professional and needs to be addressed

Excellent post. I'm delighted with our win but recognise that the Tigers pushed us all the way and on another day could have pulled off the win. An excellent game of high intensity rugby sadly marred once again by controversy. Cockerill has gone up in my estimation with his comments after the game.

Hope that all Tigers fans have returned home safely and although defeat hurts will be able to reflect on having seen a hugely absorbing spectacle.

Good luck for the rest of your Domestic Season

[me2]

"Whether the Ospreys official "says" she told the 4th Official matters not. She has to get his approval before the player can go back on. Shouting at him that Byrne is running on is not sufficient.
Ospreys didn't follow correct protocol & were therefore the ones at fault."

Do you know this for a fact?
How do you know the 4th official, standing there not saying a word, wasn't the one who made the mistake?

I know for a fact that the club official has to notify the 4th official and that the 4th official has to nofity the referee before a player is allowed to enter the field of play. (...as those are the regulations).

I also know for a fact that the 4th official didn't notify the referee (...as the referee wasn't aware that Ospreys had 16 men on the field for over a minute).

I also know for a fact that the Ospreys official allowed Byrne to return to the field without acknowledgement from the referee (...reasons as above).


Therefore, regardless of whether the Ospreys woman believed that she notified the 4th official or not, she allowed Byrne back on without the referee's permission & without calling one of the other Ospreys players off.

A player cannot leave or enter the field of play without the referee's permission.

The laws are very clear on that point:

6.A.4 THE DUTIES OF THE REFEREE IN THE PLAYING ENCLOSURE
(d) The referee gives permission to the players to leave the playing area.
(e) The referee gives permission to the replacements or substitutes to enter the playing area.




The fault therefore lies with the Ospreys management & they should be punished (by way of a fine and/or suspension for the individual management staff involved, but not the team).

[Smurphswillgetya]

For what it's worth here's my view on this. Before their try the ref should have stopped the game for a knock on. The ref should have awarded us a penalty after finding out they had 16 men on the pitch. However he didnt and that happens in games. The final whistle went and O's had scored more points than us - fact and end of story and our involvement in HC.

However there should be a review of the officials actions. Bowe did intervene in a crucial part of the game when he should not have been on the pitch. The result should stand but there should be a hefty fine for O's

[TTRITH]

Hot off the Press, as punishment the Ospreys have to release two players to Leicester, these being Mike Phillips and Alun-Wyn Jones

[chinnjamie]

Hot off the Press, as punishment the Ospreys have to release two players to Leicester, these being Mike Phillips and Alun-Wyn Jones

I would swap both of them 2, just to have Tommy Bowe

[parkerd68]

Whether we deserved to win from the overall play or not, if the O's played an extra man and we should have had a penalty then, in the context of a close game, the outcome COULD have been different.

You can't blame anyone in my opinion for feeling aggrieved at this. Yes, rules get broken during the match and people get penalised, but this is a rule which shouldn't have been broken, the ref acknowledged it had been broken, but he didn't follow the rules. If I'm not mistaken, when he found out, we were quite deep in their half, and therefore in a very good attacking position.

And for those who go back to the Hand of Back incident, yes, you too are correct in thinking if it had been spotted the result could have been different.

So let us have our moan. We'll get over it in time. That justice fella is just stupid and I'm sure not a general representation of O's fans. At least I hope not.

[Jeremy Anderson]

Actually, I see more of the fault lying with the referees. What was the 4th official doing letting the player go on the pitch without somebody coming off and of course we should have had a penalty awarded when 16 men were discovered.
I suggest both referees should be penalised and Lewis should be sent home to learn the Laws of Rugby. Given this is his paid job, he showed gross incompetence by not knowing Law 3. I accept that Ref will interpret, not spot or penalise everything but they should always know the laws.

[Simmo]

Actually, I see more of the fault lying with the referees. What was the 4th official doing letting the player go on the pitch without somebody coming off and of course we should have had a penalty awarded when 16 men were discovered.
I suggest both referees should be penalised and Lewis should be sent home to learn the Laws of Rugby. Given this is his paid job, he showed gross incompetence by not knowing Law 3. I accept that Ref will interpret, not spot or penalise everything but they should always know the laws.

If you watch the footage the player returns onto the pitch halfway between the 10m and 22m line.....nowhere near the 4th official. That's no doubt why Lewis reprimanded the female Ospreys official in such an agressive manner. This has to be the players fault for entering the field of play without permission or protocol.

Now that everyone here knows the rule about a Penalty being the punishment does anyone know where it should have been taken from? Where the 4th official stands (half way line), where the player entered the field of play, maybe where he first got involved in play or where the game restarts after the extra player is removed? None of these seem much good of a sanction to me....

[triage]

Now that everyone here knows the rule about a Penalty being the punishment does anyone know where it should have been taken from? Where the 4th official stands (half way line), where the player entered the field of play, maybe where he first got involved in play or where the game restarts after the extra player is removed? None of these seem much good of a sanction to me....

Funnily enough we have talked about this recently (several times) in our referees meetings. At the time when it is noticed that more than 15 occupy the field the team is ordered to reduce its numbers to 15 and a penalty awarded to the non offending side from where play would have restarted....therefore if a line out had been awarded it would be fifteen in along the line of touch...if it was a scrum then the penalty would be at the mark for the scrum or if a score had been awarded (e.g. try/penalty kick) then the penalty would be on the half way line.

hope this helps.

[Simmo]

Now that everyone here knows the rule about a Penalty being the punishment does anyone know where it should have been taken from? Where the 4th official stands (half way line), where the player entered the field of play, maybe where he first got involved in play or where the game restarts after the extra player is removed? None of these seem much good of a sanction to me....

Funnily enough we have talked about this recently (several times) in our referees meetings. At the time when it is noticed that more than 15 occupy the field the team is ordered to reduce its numbers to 15 and a penalty awarded to the non offending side from where play would have restarted....therefore if a line out had been awarded it would be fifteen in along the line of touch...if it was a scrum then the penalty would be at the mark for the scrum or if a score had been awarded (e.g. try/penalty kick) then the penalty would be on the half way line.

hope this helps.

Thanks for that.

I've just realised what Alan Lewis's new job will be.......

We all know (I think) that he's famous for saying "Don't go in!!!" when a Ruck forms.....once duly reprimanded his new job will be as 4th offical where he can try saying "Don't go on!!!!"

[Tiggersarewonderfulthings]

As some posters have commented, a similar situation occurred in England's hard-fought group game against Samoa in the 2003 World Cup.

Suggestion: Throw Ospreys out of the HEC. Also, England's WC gets expunged from the record books and Australia are retrospectively awarded the 2003 World Cup.

Everyone's happy.

[g]

In the sky sports report.


It says "an unnamed Ospreys player claims that Tigers had 16 men on the pitch at the time" A claim that Tigers deny.

Don't you just love the Ospreys. They have broken the rules so now are concocting a story that Tigers had 16 on the field as well,just to try and save themselves from getting into trouble.