New EPS and Saxons

[Iain D]

How much do the clubs get paid by England for players in the EPS?

As I understand it (and I may be totally off the mark here), money paid to the clubs for EPS players is put into a pool and shared equally among the GP sides regardless of how many of their squad is in the EPS. Therefore, Worcester will get as much as Tigers do.

[mike]

The Saxons squad is almost irrelevant given how rarely they play and also that Clubs have Ist call on their players if a Club match clashes with a Saxons game . The main EPS selection is pretty uninspiring with probably 7 or 8 players either past their sell by date ( inc Kay , Chuter and White ) or not even likely to get on the sales floor ! . Cipriani has his faults but he is one of the very few English backs around with real talent and it seems very short sighted to leave him out , especially given that Flood is out till Jan 2010 and Wilko will be injured again by then . Still , some would say that we of course have sam to step up - I somehow doubt this is a serious option given the complete abscence of a kicking game . My real worry with this squad is its effect on the availability of players for the Tigers - we already have a smaller squad and now with more players having compulsory rests we will struggle badly when the inevitable injuries come along .

[fleabane]

Cipriani still has to mature and understand about being a member of a team - and I think the Lions tour has demonstrated how important being a team player is.

Tigers could be missing 16+ 1st squad players when all 6N players are away, a few more than last year.

[sam16111986]

especially given that Flood is out till Jan 2010

Where the hell do people keep getting thise stuff from? Last I heard he will be back sometime in October but everytime I see another post on the matter his injury seems to have got worse. Next they'll be claims he won't be back at all this season!

we are thin on the ground in some positions (10, 4/5)

We've got to hope Hougaard or Twelvetrees steps up to the flyhalf mark while Parling is going to have to fit in quickly with Hemmingway and Green continuing where they started last season.

[Hull Fan]

With regards to Floods injury i would expect him to be back November, i've some experience of this through my work, obviously i haven't been involved in anything to do with Toby's treatment so won't be able to give facts.

January is a long time to be out with this type of injury, particularly with the club not mentioning any set backs or problems he may have encountered.

This still leaves leicester short for a couple of months and limits MJ with england, as the autumn internationals will be to soon for Toby.

I'd expect the club to ease Toby back into action from the bench for several weeks before giving him a start.

[bluntiger]

Cipriani still has to mature and understand about being a member of a team

There is definitely something here that we don't see. Am I wrong or did I read somewhere last season that Cipriani had some kind of bust-up with one of the England coaches? Some kind of verbal spat it sounded like.

My guess is that Johnno is making a point and saying to the whole squad that arguing with the coaches is not an option if you want to stay in the mix.

Given the lack of fit talent that England have at 10 (Wilco and Flood as examples! Goode and Vesty simply not world class), there seems little other explanation to leaving Cipriani out.

[g]

So picking White, Shaw, Vickery, Worsley, Chuter, Kay who are mostly mid to late 30's and probably won't feature in the next WC are good in form players are they? White, Kay probably were for their club, not so sure about the Waspies, but that doesn't mean they should still be playing for England just to try and bail Johnson out. Time to play younger players.



OK.


By sticking with over the hill players this is preventing any other young good talent from progressing.

This is Johnson looking at winning the next game to save face and not building for the future.

White, Kay, Chuter should just see out there last years with their club not prevent others from getting there chance. IMO.


Flak jacket on at the ready.

[vinniechan]

White is still a formidable scrummager and Kay was in his RWC winning form towards end of last season. Thing is they won't go all the way to the next RWC.

Banahan has been very impressive with his composure, but I don't think he can quite replace Cueto yet. The back 3 axis of Cueto-Sackey-Armitage formed a very closely knited unit - they work like a team in a team in attack and never afraid to tackle the big guys in defence, one of the success in England 6N.
Still, I'd like see Banahan and Monye getting their caps here and there.

The same could be said about Nick Wood (who got MOTM for 20 minute appearances) and Richard Blaze. Borthwick should not be captain as he's taking up a spot where we desparately need to try young players.

[Longshanks]

Not yet convinced by Banahan. To me he seems a bit one-dimensional - good in contact, yes, but not an out and out paceman and no step to speak of. Time will tell.

[masopa]

So 14 players already lost to England before the season even starts. Then there are our Irish, Italian and Argentinian contingent who we will probably lose as well.

Good point, we may as well not bothering watching any Tigers matches next season. Or even posting on the forum. Let's just all go home and take up dancing, eh?

This is not preparing for the next WC. Will White, Chuter, Vickery, Shaw, Worsley, Kay be playing in the next WC? IMO most of them will be too old.

Because playing the likes of Cole, Corbisiero, Lawes, Blaze, Woods etc. will win us how many games? How did the U20s do in the final? How did the Saxons do in any of their matches, really? If you play a bunch of youngsters between now and then we'd be lucky to win against Italy and maybe make it out of our pool...

So why is MJ picking them? Whether these players are picked on form and I beg to differ on the Wasps I've mentioned, is immaterial. If they are not likely to be playing in the next WC then don't play them now.

Well some of them were good enough to be Lions... Vickery had one very bad game (partly down to ref interpretation) but apart from that had a very good tour. Worsley also did very well, as he did for England last year. White is a superb scrummager and will teach a lot to the newer guys (and Sheridan!). But let's ignore that and get Cole and Corbs to teach everyone...

This is a "we have to win the next game,so I will play my mates strategy" and not a "Lets build and plan for the next WC strategy".

We will see the same thing happening as we did for the last WC not knowing who your squad is until about a week before the WC starts. And then it will be "Oh sh*t" I better play me mates as I haven't prepared for this and therefore hopefully they will get me out of jail.Just like Andy Robinson did at the last WC.

So what squad would you pick then, Ms Genius? I personally don't really know and whilst I can debate the positives and negatives of the selection, I really don't think I'd be able to do a better job of picking a team (which isn't just a load of individuals, by the way) and bringing them together...

I'm guessing you haven't heard of the Lions. It's a collection of players from around the British Isles (including Ireland) and you have to pull them together into a team within a couple of months. You don't just pick the very best players, you choose a team - a blend of talent, experience and also players who'll bring people together. Not really a million miles away from what you have to do for a national team - especially for the World Cup.

But then I expect you know a lot better than Geech, Davies, Ashton, Johnson, Telfer, Woodward and Gatland!

[Gate]

Pick a squad that has a good mix of youth and experience and can develop a core of players hitting their international peak as a team by the next World Cup, yes, but the idea that you don't pick anyone with experience because they won't be in the World Cup team just seems perverse. What do you do when your squad of inexperienced young 'uns becomes too old to be your team for the next next World Cup? Chuck 'em all out and have another bunch of young 'uns? Surely the way is to have a certain amount of "churn" so that younger players get experience and the team gets refreshed, but not a complete revolution every four years?

Probably, therefore, the World Cup prospects are to be found not across both England and Saxons, and the younger players will start to get brought on steadily. Or perhaps not. I'm not claiming to know more than Johnno or Geech. I am claiming to have more hair than Edwards, though.