It just makes you laugh doesn't it, people like Andy Robinson and Rob Andrew saying things like with England having access to the players for this amount of time that they really improve and can be coached properly, but we only have to look at the Irish Nz and aussies to see this doesnt always work.
If that whats central contracts does for you i think were better off without.
Ironic
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I've never understood the argument from international coaches of any sport, saying they need more time with their players.
What the heck do they think they're going to do with them?
Teach Sidebottom how to bowl? Teach Beckham how to hit a free-kick? Teach Johnny how to kick the thing between the posts.
International players are already playing for top clubs, under top coaches.
Surely all they need to do prior to an international is understand what the team tactics are going to be and drum up a bit of team spirit. And the latter part ought to come as soon as they pull on the international shirt in any case.
What the heck do they think they're going to do with them?
Teach Sidebottom how to bowl? Teach Beckham how to hit a free-kick? Teach Johnny how to kick the thing between the posts.
International players are already playing for top clubs, under top coaches.
Surely all they need to do prior to an international is understand what the team tactics are going to be and drum up a bit of team spirit. And the latter part ought to come as soon as they pull on the international shirt in any case.
Kicks and scrums and ruck and roll.....Is all my brain and body need!
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Phil B
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Which only works well if the players remain relatively constant - and which, in my view stifles competition for places, and might well encourage/promote a downward spiral in performance.Oggle wrote:yes, but the more time you spend together as players means the more familiar you are with them, and you can read each others minds- meaning you can be closer after that searing break, or not be fooled by the off-the-cuff attacking move.
...and it builds team spirit.
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mightymouse
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I think there is a balance to be had
In general our sport (football and rugby in particular) - The top players play to much and the result is physical and mental fatigue.
However - too much time spent "bonding" and "resting" with iternational team mates and not enough playing in the white heat of competition can lead to freezing on the big occasions
I was fascinated by Connolly's article that I think I read on here, where he says that the Hieneken Cup mentality has prepared England and France better for the World Cup and I think there is something in that - The Aussies forwards were just not good enough but once again the All Blacks have brought "the best team in the World" to the competition and underperformed - this cannot just be happenchance or coincidence - there is a reason.
Henry was supposed to have prepared them to the utmost and I daresay he did in every arena but the one it mattered most..... on the pitch.
Gym monkeys can't play rugby only Rugby players can - avoiding tournaments and pulling players out of Super 14 may have brought those white fern boys to Cardif in the peak of physical shape but it not bring them equipped to face a pumped up French team who dare not lose in their own cup, tempered by the fires of the French championsip and Hieneken Cup. The All Blacks could not cope with "Dogging it out" with a Chabal or an Ibanez and whilst I am not saying England will win tomorrow but the likes of Corry and Shaw will be in that same mental plane.
I know from my days of playing - you could train all pre season after a summer of running, pumping wieghts and other physical jerks and think your were the fittest man on the planet and yet in the first game after abut two scrummages and 3 mauls you could hardly breathe - half way through the season however even carrying a few knocks and niggles you were hitting that ruck harder in the last 5 minutes than you were in the first 5.
Dean Richards (universally acknowleged as one of the great players of all time) apparently was not very keen on training - however he would often be found playing for the Police on a Wednesday evening before he played for Tigers ( or knowing him possibly England ) on the Staurday.
Having said all of that I think as I said at the start there should be some balance - The cricketers have seen this - central contracts for that sport in the main has worked and England have been much more successful since their introduction ( the odd blip here and there but as a general rule of thumb) - It has meant players can be rested as seen fit and played when more time is needed - different players need different rest time - injuries, age , bowler or batsmen etc.
In Rugby - a system has to be drawn up that allows players to play in meaningful competition but equally not over played into exhaustion and early retirement. Incentives should be given to clubs who produce the home grown talent and disincentives for too many mercenaries - again a balance is required - the help that a Stransky or a Howard or Gibson (or hopefully Mauger) can give to a young backline that play with them can be invaluable, but we don't want a team full of them so that England (like a few years ago ) had about 2 flyhalfs to choose from in the premiership.
Englands surprise relative success, in the WC must not mask the fact that restructuing is required but maybe Aussie and All Black models need not be slaveishly followed after all!!
In general our sport (football and rugby in particular) - The top players play to much and the result is physical and mental fatigue.
However - too much time spent "bonding" and "resting" with iternational team mates and not enough playing in the white heat of competition can lead to freezing on the big occasions
I was fascinated by Connolly's article that I think I read on here, where he says that the Hieneken Cup mentality has prepared England and France better for the World Cup and I think there is something in that - The Aussies forwards were just not good enough but once again the All Blacks have brought "the best team in the World" to the competition and underperformed - this cannot just be happenchance or coincidence - there is a reason.
Henry was supposed to have prepared them to the utmost and I daresay he did in every arena but the one it mattered most..... on the pitch.
Gym monkeys can't play rugby only Rugby players can - avoiding tournaments and pulling players out of Super 14 may have brought those white fern boys to Cardif in the peak of physical shape but it not bring them equipped to face a pumped up French team who dare not lose in their own cup, tempered by the fires of the French championsip and Hieneken Cup. The All Blacks could not cope with "Dogging it out" with a Chabal or an Ibanez and whilst I am not saying England will win tomorrow but the likes of Corry and Shaw will be in that same mental plane.
I know from my days of playing - you could train all pre season after a summer of running, pumping wieghts and other physical jerks and think your were the fittest man on the planet and yet in the first game after abut two scrummages and 3 mauls you could hardly breathe - half way through the season however even carrying a few knocks and niggles you were hitting that ruck harder in the last 5 minutes than you were in the first 5.
Dean Richards (universally acknowleged as one of the great players of all time) apparently was not very keen on training - however he would often be found playing for the Police on a Wednesday evening before he played for Tigers ( or knowing him possibly England ) on the Staurday.
Having said all of that I think as I said at the start there should be some balance - The cricketers have seen this - central contracts for that sport in the main has worked and England have been much more successful since their introduction ( the odd blip here and there but as a general rule of thumb) - It has meant players can be rested as seen fit and played when more time is needed - different players need different rest time - injuries, age , bowler or batsmen etc.
In Rugby - a system has to be drawn up that allows players to play in meaningful competition but equally not over played into exhaustion and early retirement. Incentives should be given to clubs who produce the home grown talent and disincentives for too many mercenaries - again a balance is required - the help that a Stransky or a Howard or Gibson (or hopefully Mauger) can give to a young backline that play with them can be invaluable, but we don't want a team full of them so that England (like a few years ago ) had about 2 flyhalfs to choose from in the premiership.
Englands surprise relative success, in the WC must not mask the fact that restructuing is required but maybe Aussie and All Black models need not be slaveishly followed after all!!
I don't think its all that clear-cut ... in the case of NZ and Ireland, central contracts patently failed. For NZ, the players had been taken out of playing in teh super 14 so they could run round the training park together, so what happens when a bit of game pressure comes on? They have no idea how to respond ... playing in tight knock-out matches day-in, day-out is the only way to prepare for that so keep the players with their clubs.
That said, look at Scotland ... having them together clearly helped them and they arguable punched above their weight. They were well drilled and very well conditioned.
So, central contracts v stay with clubs? Simple really, if your players are at top clubs (ie Guinness premiership or in France) keep them there as its the only way they'll be able to train the 'top 2%' (ie their brains). It they are at, dare I say it, lesser clubs such as in Scotland then bring them together, drill the hell out of them and see how far you can get.
That said, look at Scotland ... having them together clearly helped them and they arguable punched above their weight. They were well drilled and very well conditioned.
So, central contracts v stay with clubs? Simple really, if your players are at top clubs (ie Guinness premiership or in France) keep them there as its the only way they'll be able to train the 'top 2%' (ie their brains). It they are at, dare I say it, lesser clubs such as in Scotland then bring them together, drill the hell out of them and see how far you can get.
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mightymouse
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Three of the semifinalists have the vast majority of players that play in France and England. That is excellent proof that the systems in France and England are the best. New Zealand like to think they have the best team with their setup, but they have never won the World Cup in the professional era. Enough said.
Indeed, the only time they did win was when they were the only "professional" side in world rugby....Pete wrote:Three of the semifinalists have the vast majority of players that play in France and England. That is excellent proof that the systems in France and England are the best. New Zealand like to think they have the best team with their setup, but they have never won the World Cup in the professional era. Enough said.
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