RFU, Clubs and Relegation

kuzza · Post by **kuzza** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:10 am

The RFU are considering scrapping relegation in response to pressure from clubs.

If this happens, I will go ballistic. No one, and I mean absolutely no one I know, welcomed leagues. We said they'd spell disaster. They've ruined the amateur game and they increased the gap between what are now Premiership Clubs and the rest.

All scrapping relegation will do is focus money, attention and glory on 12 clubs and ignore the rest.

It's a sell out and a disgrace.

Anthony · Post by **Anthony** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:36 am

If that's true Kuzza then its an absolute disgrace.

If you finish bottom of the league you get relegated, its a simple as that.
To ringfence the league is a ridiculous notion, but given the way that the game appears to be being run I would not be surprised to see it happen. :roll:

westy154 · Post by **westy154** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:37 am

You would rather the sport was still amateur, playing on parks in front of 5 men and a dog???

I'm a supporter of relegation by the way. It is the only way to ensure that the sport grows at all levels.

tigermilo · Post by **tigermilo** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:02 am

Its an interesting question, I for one would love to see Bath down and out for ever, same for Wasps! However, it is tricky, when any club coming up, has to invest in stadia to gain entry, then the temptation is to invest again with more or better players. This then eaves them wide open to financial insolvency should their time in the Premiership be a brief one. With in the worst circumstances the club going broke and vanishing!
Oddly enough I believe that in the NFL over in the USA they have no relegation either, and it help them to ive the cluba some security. I would personally suggest-
Enlarge the league by or 3 places. Bin the Anglo Welsh cup, and get rid of the play off's. The clubs would have enough games to generate income. Then also stop playing on international weekends. The game IS professional, it should be ragnised as such.

dailywaffle · Post by **dailywaffle** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:03 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_u ... 405124.stm

Let's be under no illusion, the PRLs number one priority is themselves. However, there is no question that professionalism has hugely contributed to the massive growth in rugby in this country.

Relegation, along with the likes of central contracts, was always going to be one of the very large bargaining chips in the 'war' between the PRL and the RFU. This is not new, the idea has been discussed before, but the RFUs tacit acceptance is confirmation that we are moving to a 'franchise' model.

But it doesn't seem quite right, does it ? And I do have a problem with sterile bottom of the table fixtures that would inevitably occur towards the end of the season. If nothing else, relegation does add a bit of spice !

dailywaffle · Post by **dailywaffle** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:06 am

In answer to tigermilo; you are right, North American sports (including NFL, MLB etc) adopts a franchise model. They have no culture of relegation, and so they don't get hung up about the issue.

What they do have is periodic expansion. If a club knocks on the door long enough, and they have the wealth, stadium and credibility to deliver then the league expands to incorporate them. Not exactly 'fair' in the way we see it, but they are happy with that approach.

By the way; no relegation from the Magners League !

westy154 · Post by **westy154** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:38 am

The NFL is franchise based, with each club taking a stake in the overall company. They also share ALL revenue between the franchise clubs: All merchandising is split 32 ways, all funds are shared out equally and controlled centrally. It is an incredible system that the sport runs, ensuring that all clubs flourish, that there is an amazing amount of competitiveness across ALL teams, and that it is the richest, most profitable sports league in the world…

…However, they started from scratch, and there is no way that it would work in rugby, or indeed in this country. It is a perfect model for 'them', not for ‘us’.

Tigermilo is indeed right, it is a professional sport and as such needs to be reorganised (as I think you were trying to say

) into a professional structure. But closing off the top flight wouldn't result in the game growing in the regions, in the grass roots, where expansion is still desperately needed. For example, I live in Nottingham and Nottingham RFC is on the rise. They have dreams (unrealistic in my book, but that's another story) of playing Premiership Rugby in 3 or 4 years time. They are slowly attracting new supporters, and they are getting a squad in place to try and mount such a challenge. Take the promotion carrot away from them, and the small crowd that they currently get would more than likely diminish; they would have nothing to play for, nothing to attain to. This is the model of British sport in general; striving to be better, and this must be embraced and utilised.

Now on the flip side, I do agree that when there is a lot of pressure, game quality can deteriorate. People will play for the corners instead of a higher risk, expansive game. And it may be that without fear of losing, if there is such a thing, teams will be willing to play 'better' rugby, but that is not a given. Teams lower down the league are usually there because they aren’t very good. Taking pressure off them might not make a blind bit of difference.

I also agree that the fear of relegation can play havoc with financial planning, and I don't really have an answer to that, except to say that a worst case scenario should be included.

As for the Magners league, well that already has central contracts and franchises, and the large majority of this forum at least are critically opposed to seeing that happen. Yes franchises and regions work in Ireland, New Zealand and Wales (possibly, I don't know about the last one), but I genuinely don't think they would work in England.

One final point: I believe that Super League is planning on scrapping relegation in a couple of year’s time. If they get there before us, it will be really interesting to see how the small clubs react, and whether they are even able to survive.

tigermad · Post by **tigermad** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:41 am

What a crazy situation if relegation from the Premiership is knocked on the head. What incentive is there for clubs like Bedford in National 1 to push for promotion if no clubs from the Premiership are relegated. You cannot ringfence the Premiership as suggested by Baron as this will not only stifle competition but put the pot of gold in the hands of 12 clubs while the rest survive on mere scraps of financial opportunities.

Bunchy · Post by **Bunchy** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:33 pm

I think we need to remember that, as long as the RFU are involved, no common sense will be used at all.
Look at Farrell, the 4th Autumn test, the expensive court case....................................

MikeWW · Post by **MikeWW** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:01 pm

I'm sure that every club in the country dreams of being top of the Premiership, no matter how far away they are. To remove that possibilty, or make it that much further away, is ridiculous. You are effectively saying that aspirations must stop at the top of League 1.

Does the RFU (one of the richest Rugby bodies in the world) not have the money to assist clubs on the way up or down? We know that most of them don't have the required level of common sense but they could at least show the required levels of concern and determination.

wellbutthatcouldbe · Post by **wellbutthatcouldbe** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:09 pm

westy154, you are correct. Super League is scrapping relegation from 2009 onwards (I think). However, they are bringing in a system similiar to that dailywaffle says happens in America: if a team in the league is bottom nearly every year, has falling crowds, is nearly bankrupt and has a stadium that falling to bits they'll get chucked out, and another team (with all the opposite, presumably) will be brought in. That will be reviewed every three years.

If RU is scrapping relegation, it's vital to keep that sort of review process. You just can't say, at a single point in time, to 12 clubs that they are the top flight for ever more, and tell the rest to go home.

Doesn't mean it won't be tried though...

g · Post by g » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:16 pm

NO RELEGATION = A whole season of boring, meaningless rugby with nothing to play for except finishing in the top 4 positions.

The rugby that is served up at the moment is dour as it is. Just think how much worse it will get if there is no relegation.

I cannot see many season tickets being renewed if this happens.

And I really feel sorry for those poor :censored: who finish top of league 1. They will get squit all as a reward.

I wish someone would shoot the lot of the idiots who are bringing this game further and further into the gutter.

Bruce Hornby-Trainset · Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:38 pm

Do I detect the hand of Rob Andrew in all this? Remember his desperate arguments in favour of ring-fencing a couple seasons back when Newcastle were looking decidedly dodgy under his management.

SPIKE@srufc · Post by **SPIKE@srufc** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:39 pm

If this was to happen would the 'lower leagues' be included in a more radical shake up.

If you move to a franchise type model, such as the NFL or Super 14 (bear with me on this as I might be wrong on the super 14 set up) don't you have stated feeder teams where development players can be 'developed' and others given match time. Bedford and Tom Varndell like arrangements. It would have to be accepted that the non-premiership teams have this role rather than the eyes of the pot of gold that promotion gives. (Obviously the pot of gold would need to be shared in this way too).

Personally I'd hate to see the end of relegation, but and it's a big but something has to be done to sort out the club versus country issue, however sanitising the league just doesn't feel right.

westy154 · Post by **westy154** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:02 pm

G, good point.

On the last day of the season for the past couple of years every single match has had something riding on it, either for a top 4 finish or for relegation. That is a very good state of affairs and ensures that there isn't the dull fest like there was in the (football) premiership this year, where the only match of significance was to see who got 4th place. Ooooh exciting!