LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

[Jimmy Skitz]

Not sure but the 'tribal provinces' in the unified Irish rugby map are familiar to Irish sports culture. The GAA factor?

imagine if we had regions, if East midlands was based here would Saints fans cheer for them? Or if it was there would our fans cheer for them? Or would those fans simply be lost?

I think a lot of supporters would be lost certainly in this area, where there is a lot of historical fan bases. In London I’m not so sure there seems to be a lot less geographical boundaries

my point was in relation to Newport representing all of Gwent, despite the majority of fans in that area supporting other clubs, they simply don't follow the region

[RagingBull]

Munster, Ulster and Leinster have been formed since 1879.
In Wales in all their wisdom binned off any clubs with Identity such as
Ebbw Vale
Neath
Swansea
Newport
Bridgend
and merged them at a point really when it was too late. If they had did it in the late 80's such as Ireland I suspect things would be a lot different.

It's like if the RFU decided to now merge Leicester and Northampton together, on paper sounds good in reality how many Leicester or Saints fans would watch that team play? But if that region was formed 150 years ago I suspect things would've been fine. Got to remember county rugby was massive in the amateur era people were less tribal on the whole back then.

Scarlets are the region that is most linked to their previous club and they have the strongest support base of all of them for a reason.

Scotland's problem is they have never had success or funding really till recent years.

[Old Hob]

The regional argument is interesting. Who would have predicted in the 1970's that Bridgend, Pontypool, and all those famous names would be swallowed, sink to a lower level or disappear completely? They have and there has been a fall off in support. The tinkering with the new international competition shows where the rulers' heads are - up in the clouds with TV money. Remove clubs in England and the older generation would, I feel drop off and, perhaps more importantly, not enthuse the younger generation. (The older generation is, of course, going to drop off because of Anno Domini). It would be a huge jump, too from Gas Street School OB's to a regional berth; far bigger than now.

[RagingBull]

I know why I just don't get the difference?
I get the idea he's paid his dues to welsh rugby, but Reffell isn't even a product of welsh system so why should the limit apply to him?

He did play age grade rugby for Wales all the way through, but I do get your point about his rugby education being outside the principality

Ross Moriarty sort of proves they don't care about the age grade.

Actually Moriaty is a crazy case.
Played for England U18, U20
Played for Gloucester Academy
Played 83 games for Gloucester
Played 17 games for Wales

Forced to go to dragons to be picked.
Played 35 games for Dragons
Played 37 games for Wales
Now just 4 games away from being able to play outside of wales again, I wouldn't be surprised if his contract is over end of next season and he moves.

[sam16111986]

I know why I just don't get the difference?
I get the idea he's paid his dues to welsh rugby, but Reffell isn't even a product of welsh system so why should the limit apply to him?

He did play age grade rugby for Wales all the way through, but I do get your point about his rugby education being outside the principality

Ross Moriarty sort of proves they don't care about the age grade.

Actually Moriaty is a crazy case.
Played for England U18, U20
Played for Gloucester Academy
Played 83 games for Gloucester
Played 17 games for Wales

Forced to go to dragons to be picked.
Played 35 games for Dragons
Played 37 games for Wales
Now just 4 games away from being able to play outside of wales again, I wouldn't be surprised if his contract is over end of next season and he moves.

Already rumours he might head back to Gloucester.

There's plenty of players that switch allegiance between age grade and full International. It's whether Eddie can convince him to switch.

[Rugbygramps]

Bit confused are you suggesting Jones tries to get Reffell to switch to play for England. Why would he do that with the depth at 7 England have

[sam16111986]

Bit confused are you suggesting Jones tries to get Reffell to switch to play for England. Why would he do that with the depth at 7 England have

Because opensides have a high attrition rate, it would annoy Wales and Eddie does sometimes like to go dual openside (The Kamikaze Kids approach). That and Reffell would fit his game plan.

[RagingBull]

Reffell is an out and out Welshman no way he would pick england

[Rugbygramps]

Bit confused are you suggesting Jones tries to get Reffell to switch to play for England. Why would he do that with the depth at 7 England have

Because opensides have a high attrition rate, it would annoy Wales and Eddie does sometimes like to go dual openside (The Kamikaze Kids approach). That and Reffell would fit his game plan.

But he has at least 6 at least equal if not better options. It’s not going to happen Sam so I wouldn’t hang your hat on it.

[northerntiger]

Re Regions, it can work if the regions are already established entities. The Irish regions were already geographical entities, the welsh regions were not. It might have worked in England when the game went pro if the RFU contracted the players on a county basis - certainly Lancashire and Yorkshire were big back in the amateur games - Cornwall too. But the RFU were too slow and the clubs became the powerhouse

[sam16111986]

Bit confused are you suggesting Jones tries to get Reffell to switch to play for England. Why would he do that with the depth at 7 England have

Because opensides have a high attrition rate, it would annoy Wales and Eddie does sometimes like to go dual openside (The Kamikaze Kids approach). That and Reffell would fit his game plan.

But he has at least 6 at least equal if not better options. It’s not going to happen Sam so I wouldn’t hang your hat on it.

Oh I don't think it will happen, as RB says Reffell is a proud Welshman. Doesn't mean Eddie won't have a word though. As pointed out earlier in the thread whom a player represents at age grade level is little indicator as to where they will pledge their allegiance at international level.

T Curry, Underhill, J Willis and Ludlum will likely be in the running. Reffell is not up there with the first two but could probably a least contest with the second two though it would be a tough ask.

[jgriffin]

Welsh regions were, and are, moribund as identities. The Irish provinces are , largely, historic (they lack the 'centre' of Irish locations, presumably Monaghan could've been one?).
As a Whites supporter in the 90s, Ospreys were a dead duck for Swansea and Neath supporters. It was like amalgamating Tigers and Saints but far worse. Cardiff and Scarlets have defined identities, at least. Moving from the Prem to a region is only for the passionate Welshmen, even Holmes must've kicked himself in the drizzle on a Friday in Newport in front of 300 soaked Dragons fans.
It could've all been so much better, but then PRL,RFU and the WRU knew better. AngloWelsh two divisions - no need for jokes like 'Gatlands Law' and could've connected to a better lower tier. Chance gone.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

When you think of the level the top Welsh clubs were at pre Professionalism, the current state of affairs is a joke.

[Rugbygramps]

Because opensides have a high attrition rate, it would annoy Wales and Eddie does sometimes like to go dual openside (The Kamikaze Kids approach). That and Reffell would fit his game plan.

But he has at least 6 at least equal if not better options. It’s not going to happen Sam so I wouldn’t hang your hat on it.

Oh I don't think it will happen, as RB says Reffell is a proud Welshman. Doesn't mean Eddie won't have a word though. As pointed out earlier in the thread whom a player represents at age grade level is little indicator as to where they will pledge their allegiance at international level.

T Curry, Underhill, J Willis and Ludlum will likely be in the running. Reffell is not up there with the first two but could probably a least contest with the second two though it would be a tough ask.

No you’re right you have to remember B Curry and Earl too. I know people don’t like Earls antics but he is one hell of a good player, and his and Malins absence is one of the big reasons for Bristol drop in form this season.

[Rugbygramps]

When you think of the level the top Welsh clubs were at pre Professionalism, the current state of affairs is a joke.

This is such a good point, and had Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea, along with possibly Neath, been left as identities in their own right, rather than having to absorb lesser sides I think it would have been a different story. Giving Newport a region was a joke, they would have been better off spending the money in North Wales, or even further west Tenby etc.