Robshaw vindicated

[exiledandy]

In all the hullabaloo about the loss to Australia people have missed the other story. England's complete capitulation to Australia has overshadowed the fact that Robshaw's decision to kick for the corner against Wales has absolutely been vindicated.

The criticism of Robshaw is that a draw against Wales would have positioned us quite well in the group if we could then beat Australia. On reflection we must assume therefore that Robshaw calculated that we were more likely to progress in the final 3 minutes against Wales than we were to beat Australia in 80 minutes the following week. Maybe in making the decision he considered the lack of out-and-out 7, the lack of seasoned attacking centres and the general lack of leadership and foresaw the calamity ahead. Suddenly the decision looks like a more calculated gamble!

It's a sad reflection - but its the only possible logical explanation!

[Bill W (2)]

The problem was not the decision to kick for the corner but to then throw the ball short to him so he could be bundled into touch!

[exiledandy]

To be fair - that was a secondary problem. The consensus up to now has been that the initial call was wrong. With the benefit of hindsight we can now say the initial call was correct but the short throw was a definite mistake.

[Bill W (2)]

To be fair - that was a secondary problem. The consensus up to now has been that the initial call was wrong. With the benefit of hindsight we can now say the initial call was correct but the short throw was a definite mistake.

Consensus?

Play to win or go for a draw? Lancastrian logic.

As SCW said this scenario must have been discussed pre match. The short throw will have been against strategy and the advice of line out leader. Robshaw backed himself - and lost!

[Will S]

Is this correct?

If we had drawn with Wales and they end up losing to Australia as well then we would have both lost one and drawn one. England secured the try BP against Fiji so wouldn't we have snuck through in second place?

All a bit academic now!

[G.K]

The real problem in the Welsh match, and in many others, was the lack of leadership that caused England to lose control of the game that then required any such decision in the first place. The other issue is the manner of the decision, via a committee meeting. Vindicated? I don't think so.

[mol2]

The game was lost by more than the last line out.

Failure to put away a mediocre Wales team that had been further hit by injuries in the match was the big problem. Having to even think about going for a draw tells us more than enough about the ambition, thinking and ability of the England side.

[welshy08]

Love how English fans blame their team for the defeat to give the opposition no credit at all.

Wales only turn up at the sixty minute mark in the big international rugby matches generally..and when they do they chuck the kitchen sink at you and try to beat you on fitness. When a teams fitness goes and they start blowing.. both their discipline and concentration drops off a cliff too (as England demonstrated).. This last twenty stuff has been the Welsh tactics for at least Five Years. It is crucial to Warrenball. There is no great secret about this. Their only objective is to keep in touch on the scoreboard until then.

So to say England dominated Wales and "should have won" is either being massively disingenuous (rugby is a very very professional sport both on and off the pitch it seems) or completely and utterly ignorant.

When Wales come back and win in the last twenty it is ONLY because of careful planning and extreme discipline throughout the match.

[mol2]

I didn't say England played well enough to win I said they failed to beat a mediocre Wales team.

A someone with a foot in both camps I feel I was being objective.
This is not a great Wales side and is some way short of the side that played at the world cup. Compound that with the injuries they suffered and I am sure Gatland and co were glad they were not playing a top level side from the Southern Hemisphere. It took an inspirationally dull side to lose that match.

[exiledandy]

To be fair - that was a secondary problem. The consensus up to now has been that the initial call was wrong. With the benefit of hindsight we can now say the initial call was correct but the short throw was a definite mistake.

Consensus?

Play to win or go for a draw? Lancastrian logic.

As SCW said this scenario must have been discussed pre match. The short throw will have been against strategy and the advice of line out leader. Robshaw backed himself - and lost!

I think you have missed my (admittedly slightly tongue in cheek) point. Leaving the short call aside (as we don't know for sure that Robshaw called it), the benefit of hindsight tells us that going for corner was absolutely the best answer. Our humble captain could see how rubbish we would be against Aus and concluded that the only way to qualify was to beat Wales.

Commentators have contrasted his "bad" decision with Japan's "good" decision, not just because Japan pulled it off but also because Japan had nothing to lose. Foresight obviously told Robshaw that England also had nothing to lose... meaning that he made the correct call!

[Will S]

So am I right in thinking that Robshaw is not vindicated and assuming England beat Uruguay with a TBP we would have gone through instead of Wales if we had kicked the penalty and drawn against Wales?

[fleabane]

Poor decisions, poor execution, poor preparation, poor leadership when it really mattered. Accusers vindicated.

[Soggypitch]

I was at the Wales game and had my head in my hands when we kicked for the corner. I admire Robshaw's leadership qualities, he is a really nice bloke basically, but he got that decision badly wrong and it will haunt him ad infinitum.....

Despite all the bad selections we should still be in the quarters playing the Boks, the fact we aren't really pi**es me off!!!

[Sajerj]

Massive knock on by Sansom Lee in the ruck prior to the winning penalty. Referee was on the far side and missed it.

On such fine margins.......

[Hot_Charlie]

So am I right in thinking that Robshaw is not vindicated and assuming England beat Uruguay with a TBP we would have gone through instead of Wales if we had kicked the penalty and drawn against Wales?

Yes.