E.L.V's

[tigerburnie]

I have to say I always played to the ref, warts an all, if he spotted something and I was penalised, I tried something else, if I got away with it then I kept on doing it(granted at the level I played at only pride was at stake most of the time).

[ellis9]

I think Northampton fans would say a certain Wayne Barnes is biased

[johnthegriff]

Refereeing a game is a difficult job. Have you ever been next to a fellow supporter who has seen an incident in the match completely different to yourself. Even supporters of the same team will differ on forward passes, early or late tackles and off side, more technical decisions are usually just guesses by the average fan. If like me having attended a match you then watch the recording I am sure that you will have found that the ref is not as bad as you first thought, also refs are usually better when they are not refereeing your team and you are watching as a neutral. Of course some refs do seem to referee certain sides more strictly than others, sometimes they are quicker to see what they expect to see from a side and slower to see what they don't expect from another, they are human and therefore can make mistakes just like their parents.

[fentiger]

they are human and therefore can make mistakes just like their parents.

[L Smith]

Refereeing a game is a difficult job. Have you ever been next to a fellow supporter who has seen an incident in the match completely different to yourself. Even supporters of the same team will differ on forward passes, early or late tackles and off side, more technical decisions are usually just guesses by the average fan. If like me having attended a match you then watch the recording I am sure that you will have found that the ref is not as bad as you first thought, also refs are usually better when they are not refereeing your team and you are watching as a neutral. Of course some refs do seem to referee certain sides more strictly than others, sometimes they are quicker to see what they expect to see from a side and slower to see what they don't expect from another, they are human and therefore can make mistakes just like their parents.

Fair comments. I have previously criticised Nigel Owens and even with my most balanced, even-minded head on, he still stands out as one of the names I dread seeing in a Tigers or England game.
I guess we're meandering away from the topic. I have to say that it is very helpful having someone like Tigerref on here who can add some accurate balance to these discussions.

[jgriffin]

Refereeing a game is a difficult job. Have you ever been next to a fellow supporter who has seen an incident in the match completely different to yourself. Even supporters of the same team will differ on forward passes, early or late tackles and off side, more technical decisions are usually just guesses by the average fan. If like me having attended a match you then watch the recording I am sure that you will have found that the ref is not as bad as you first thought, also refs are usually better when they are not refereeing your team and you are watching as a neutral. Of course some refs do seem to referee certain sides more strictly than others, sometimes they are quicker to see what they expect to see from a side and slower to see what they don't expect from another, they are human and therefore can make mistakes just like their parents.

Fair comments. I have previously criticised Nigel Owens and even with my most balanced, even-minded head on, he still stands out as one of the names I dread seeing in a Tigers or England game.
I guess we're meandering away from the topic. I have to say that it is very helpful having someone like Tigerref on here who can add some accurate balance to these discussions.

There are shades of opinion in refdom too! They don't sing from the same hymnbook all the time.
I'd rather have Owens than Walsh, and much rather Poite or Doyle than anlmost anyone else. I do miss Spreaders' commonsense and willingness to admit mistakes, certainly not up his own reputation!

[Tigerref]

There are shades of opinion in refdom too! They don't sing from the same hymnbook all the time.
I'd rather have Owens than Walsh, and much rather Poite or Doyle than anlmost anyone else. I do miss Spreaders' commonsense and willingness to admit mistakes, certainly not up his own reputation!

There are indeed shades of opinion, much as there is no one way to play 10 or to kick a ball or enter a ruck. Reffing is an art not a science.

I have my favourite refs and those who my heart sinks a little bit when they get Tigers or England.

(As an aside I'm still waiting for you to clarify your Steve Walsh is biased post)

[L Smith]

I have my favourite refs and those who my heart sinks a little bit when they get Tigers or England)

Please name and shame!

[DickyP]

There are three problems with refs which will always lead to accusations of bias.

One is inconsistency pure and simple: if you are inconsistent then you are bound to end up giving one team an advantage. Prime candidate here is Owens who seems to see the game as a theatre for him to perform in.

Secondly there are the decisions to totally ignore some laws whilst concentrating on others. If your team is keeping to the letter of the law and the opposition is breaking the laws being ignored then you will be suffering from 'bias'. This is the Steve Walsh problem: watched him twice lately and he makes no effort, whatsoever, to police scrum put ins and straightness of line-outs (except in wildly obvious cases).

Lastly there is the problem we see in Europe where the Pro 12 is refereed very differently from the two competitive leagues and Pro 12 refs are used in games where Pro 12 teams are playing against English and French ones. The casual acceptance of obstruction, forward passes and offside always causes initial problems for the English/French teams.

I don't think refs are 'biased' as such; it's just that bad refereeing lays them open to the charge.

[h's dad]

The biggest problem with refereeing is the spectators. Remove them and 99.9% of the problems will disappear.

[biffer]

There are three problems with refs which will always lead to accusations of bias.

One is inconsistency pure and simple: if you are inconsistent then you are bound to end up giving one team an advantage. Prime candidate here is Owens who seems to see the game as a theatre for him to perform in.

Secondly there are the decisions to totally ignore some laws whilst concentrating on others. If your team is keeping to the letter of the law and the opposition is breaking the laws being ignored then you will be suffering from 'bias'. This is the Steve Walsh problem: watched him twice lately and he makes no effort, whatsoever, to police scrum put ins and straightness of line-outs (except in wildly obvious cases).

Lastly there is the problem we see in Europe where the Pro 12 is refereed very differently from the two competitive leagues and Pro 12 refs are used in games where Pro 12 teams are playing against English and French ones. The casual acceptance of obstruction, forward passes and offside always causes initial problems for the English/French teams.

I don't think refs are 'biased' as such; it's just that bad refereeing lays them open to the charge.

Yep, there are refs who seem to outright ignore some rules. Several of the Irish refs appear not to have read the offside law for example, Clancy being prime amongst them.

On Owens, I think it's interesting that in England he seems to be reviled, but virtually everywhere else thinks he's one of the best around. Not worked out why to be honest, does he penalise in a particular area where English teams try to play a lot of their rugby?

[biffer]

Anyway, this thread seems to have gone waaay off topic as we're discussing refs instead of ELVs.

[jgriffin]

I have my favourite refs and those who my heart sinks a little bit when they get Tigers or England)

Please name and shame!

Think someone else wrote that......I find Walsh to have a peculiar interpretation of the laws that seems negligent when reffing England, a team he is on record as admitting he hates (has been quoted in Rugby Paper, although he may he been in his cups at the time, a not unusual occurrence in the past).

[Tigerref]

Anyway, this thread seems to have gone waaay off topic as we're discussing refs instead of ELVs.

AS posted earlier we're in a world cup cycle no law changes for 2 seasons.

[G.K]

At least that will give some of those that don't seem to understand the current laws time to catch up. Do you have a copy Nigel and Steve?